It’s been quite a big week for Nintendo.
On April 2, the company finally pulled back the curtain on its highly-anticipated Switch 2 console. All of our major questions were answered, from release date and pricing to the new hardware features and games lineup. Following all of that, MobileSyrup had the privilege of sitting down with three of the key architects behind the console: director Takuhiro Dohta, producer Kouichi Kawamoto and technical director Tetsuya Sasaki. They’re the same three faces who guided us through the April 2 Nintendo Direct.
In a wide-ranging conversation, we talked about how Nintendo approached iteration on something as massively popular as Switch 2, the process of designing the new magnetic Joy-Cons, how the hardware and software teams come together to create technically ambitious games like the ultra-destructive Donkey Kong Bananza and expansive open-world Mario Kart World, and more.
The Nintendo Switch is such a beloved system and one of the best-selling consoles of all time. You have such a proven and beloved formula with that. So, when you knew you were going to iterate upon that with the Switch 2, how do you go about building on something that’s so popular while maintaining what makes it so popular?
Mario Kart World on the Switch 2.
Takuhiro Dohta, Nintendo Switch 2 director: So, one thing great about the Nintendo Switch is that if you create and develop a game that runs on the Nintendo Switch, it automatically runs on both the TV and is also a portable game. And that was something really, really attractive to developers. And I believe that what that translates to, in terms of game development and experience, is that, as a game developer, you build a game that runs on the Nintendo Switch, and through the fact that you can have a game that is playable both on the TV and in portable or handheld mode, it just brings this added value to the game.
And when it comes to developing for and thinking about the Nintendo Switch 2, something I wanted to really try to emulate and recreate is the idea that the hardware, just by having the software on this hardware, it automatically adds added value. This comes to the feature of GameChat. Just by virtue of having the game on Nintendo Switch 2, you’re able to then have a game that you’re able to chat with friends or even see each other through the camera feed. And I feel like you can have the experience of being in the same room and sharing that gaming experience even if you’re far away. I feel like having something like that where added value is automatically added through the Nintendo Switch 2 is something that I feel really cements Nintendo Switch 2 as a genuine successor to the Nintendo Switch.
During the Nintendo Direct and the marketing materials that Nintendo has put out so far, this idea of “all together, anytime, anywhere” has been shared. As developers, what does that ethos mean to you when it comes to the experience you want to give to fans of the Nintendo Switch?
Dohta: So first thing, as someone who creates games, once it gets into the player’s hands — seeing the unexpected. So there’s all these things that we have in mind when we’re creating the games, but when it gets to the hands of the players, seeing how it kind of expands, how it goes beyond what we have imagined, is something that I really look forward to. And potentially, our games being the catalyst to create and change the relationships that these people and fans might have is something that I’m really looking forward to seeing.
One of my favourite features of getting to try the Switch 2 was the mouse functionality. Being able to use that in games like Metroid Prime 4 and Civilization VII. I’m curious — how many iterations did you have to go through for it? Because it works very well. Even the fact that it can work on your pants, I thought was very surprising. So, how did you get it to work like that, especially with such a small device like a Joy-Con?
The mouse functionality of the Joy-Con 2 controllers.
Tetsuya Sasaki, Switch 2 technical director: I haven’t counted, but there have indeed been a lot of iterations. [laughs] And we just kept repeating the process where I would create something, or we would create something and then have my partners test it out and then create something else, have my partners test it out and repeat that process.
Kouichi Kawamoto, Switch 2 producer: [picks up a Joy-Con on a Switch 2 unit and begins to gesture] So to dive into the details, there’s a lens in the sensor, and how high up it is changes based on when you have the Joy-Con grip attached and when you don’t. So during development, we ran into the challenge where the focus of the lens wouldn’t be in focus. So we didn’t simply buy a lens that was in the market — we developed it ourselves.
Earlier today, Nvidia confirmed DLSS [Deep Learning Super Sampling] and real-time ray-tracing support for the Switch 2. How will that benefit players?
Dohta: I’ll start with saying that through DLSS, right now, the Nintendo Switch 2 max output to a TV at 4K. So simply put, it’ll just be a lot easier to show prettier graphics. Obviously, what I stated is very, very obvious, but to go a little bit deeper, that means that if a software developer would like to keep a higher resolution but also make the rendering very rich, they have the option to accomplish both. And this provides them with an option to do so. And like I mentioned before, that this then becomes a tool for the developer to really utilize when they’re developing their software.
You mentioned real-time ray tracing. So I think there may have been, for example, certain scenes or a certain kind of motif that the software developer wants to realize and depict but were having trouble, but now they have the option to implement ray tracing as another form, as a way to support that and try to create, really, what they want to see.
During the roundtable with the media and the three of you, a journalist from [Europe] asked about Joy-Con drift, and your response was the Switch 2 Joy-Cons have been “built from the ground up” to support “bigger movements” and “smoother movements.” I’m curious if you can elaborate on what you mean by the sort of bigger and smoother movements with the new Joy-Cons?
The Joy-Con 2 controllers.
Sasaki: For one, if you look at the product itself, you can tell that it is just bigger. There is more height to it. If you look at the angle at which the stick tilts, there’s just more freedom of movement. There’s more freedom in the angle. And of course, it is smoother. [rotates the stick on the Joy-Con 2]
I think what could help is after interacting with the Nintendo Switch 2 and the Joy-Con 2, going back to the Nintendo Switch and touching that and trying that out and kind of comparing the two systems and how they feel in your hand. And I think the difference will be obvious to you. And I feel kind of silly saying this myself, because I feel like everything I’m saying is obvious. It’s a bigger system. [laughs]
Something that I was very impressed with playing the games yesterday was playing Donkey Kong Bananza and seeing the scale of the game, the destructibility — you can destroy pretty much everything. I kept punching and I ended up falling off the platform — I didn’t even think I could do that. So I’m curious — what comes first, the chicken or the egg, with this sort of game? Does the development team have this concept for this fully destructible Donkey Kong world, and then you provide the [tech] that will support that vision? Or was it very much once they saw that the Switch 2 was capable of doing this that they came up with the concept for this really big and interactive and destructive Donkey Kong game?
Dohta: It’s a good question. [laughs] I’ll start by saying that at Nintendo, there are people who work on software and people who work on hardware. And on the software side, they’re always thinking about new game ideas — “This is the game I want.” And all different kinds of ideas constantly flow out of them. And out of those kinds of ideas that come out, there are ones that may be a little bit difficult to realize because of the given capabilities of the hardware at that given time. So maybe we might put that one aside and take another idea that could be realized and then start working on that.
Almost everything in Donkey Kong Bananza is destructible.
And same thing on the hardware side. The hardware team is constantly thinking about what kind of hardware could be — maybe something that does this, or maybe something that does that. When these two ideas coincide, where we’re thinking about what we want to do versus what we can do, and when those kind of ideas coincide is when the hardware team might come together and say, “Okay, maybe this is the kind of hardware we want to move forward with and we have a direction.” And so it’s almost like we have this sort of like matchmaking process internally in Nintendo that kind of sparks the direction in which we go in terms of hardware. And that’s the process that Nintendo has gone through through the various generations of hardware.
Speaking of generations, the original Nintendo Switch in 2017 really started this larger trend of “console quality” gaming on the go. Since then, we’ve had PC gaming handhelds like the Steam Deck or Asus ROG Ally. We even have streaming to mobile devices now. And obviously, there’s your iterations of the Switch, like the Switch Lite and OLED. Since that [handheld] market has evolved so much since the first Switch came out in 2017, what are some of the lessons you’ve learned from both your own hardware and the other hardware that’s been released that you’ve applied to the Switch 2?
Sasaki: So I think one thing that is very important when creating hardware… We have our producer and our director here and they are primarily software developers. And I think one of our goals as Nintendo is to provide something that is really the unison between hardware and software. And so when we are developing hardware, one of the things that we constantly have in the back of our mind is, “What is something that the software team wants from us? What kind of games do they want to create?” And I believe that this thought process really enhances each other’s experience between the hardware and software development teams, and I think it is this kind of symbiotic relationship between the two development teams is what really provides the experience that we do. In hardware development, we’re constantly thinking about, “What is the technology out there in the world, and how can we make use of it?”
Kawamoto: So I actually have a relatively simple answer, and that is, simply put, we have an idea of what kind of hardware we want, and then that’s what we lean towards. For example, we thought, “I want to be able to charge when I’m using tabletop mode.” So we added a USB port at the top. In addition, we wanted to be able to attach and re-attach the Joy-Con 2 controllers more easily, and so that’s why we utilized magnets. And finally, we wanted to be able to have people play games like Game Boy Advance and DS and gather in place together, so that’s why we added GameChat.
Mentioning the magnetic Joy-Cons, I read in the “Ask the Developer” series that you did that this was an idea you had before. How much work went into developing magnetic Joy-Cons? I imagine you had to make sure that they were safe for children — that they couldn’t just easily be pulled off, so you had to put the release button there. I’m curious about that process of designing these new Joy-Cons.
Dohta: First of all, let’s start by saying there was a lot. [laughs]
Sasaki: A notable feature, I think, is for example, the SL/SR buttons, because they’re on the inside — the buttons themselves are made of metal because they need to stick to the magnet on the inside. And actually, in console development, it is incredibly rare for buttons to use metal. And so it was an idea that really didn’t come up very naturally for us in development. So initially, we had a bunch of other ideas on how to make this work. There were many advancements made in the world of technology and we were finally able to get to a place where we could use metal in the buttons. But it took a lot of trial and error until we got there. When you look at the final result itself, it feels like such an obvious answer, but the truth is, when the standard doesn’t exist already, it’s one of those ideas that doesn’t isn’t actually that simple to come up with.
Kawamoto: Originally, we didn’t have the button that would release the magnet. And so you had to pull. And then we discussed, “Well, wouldn’t the kids pull it apart?” So my first request was, “Please use a strong magnet.” And the second was, “Okay, if you want to be able to pull it, please make sure you can pull it.” So I gave that conflicting request to the hardware experts. [laughs] And to take this request and bring it into realization, we had several ideas using magnets, but for some of them, the technology wasn’t quite available to us yet. So again, we just went through so many iterations before we arrived at the solution.
Moving back to the games side of things… Mario Kart World is massive. We’ve had big tracks before in previous Mario Kart games, but this is the first time that they’re all seamlessly together in one world. So I’m curious, from a hardware perspective, what are some of the challenges of being able to enable this seamless world that players can explore with beautiful fidelity and a consistent frame rate, all those sort of things, for the first time in Mario Kart?
Dohta: I’ll start saying that there’s part of this equation where the developers of Mario Kart World had taken a look at — I’m saying “scope” of the hardware here, but what I mean by that is the processing capability, resolution, all of that, bundled into this term “scope” — but taking the scope and then adjusted it so that they can create a game that really leverages the scope that this hardware has. And there was mention of this integrated hardware and software approach which is how Nintendo approaches entertainment. I think this is a representation of that in that the hardware team and the Mario Kart team really worked together in collaboration to create this product.
Kawamoto: There was quite a lot of conversation around providing, as much as possible, the power from the Nintendo Switch 2 performance to the software developers for their games.
Dohta: And basically, trying to kind of squish, as much as possible, the system OS needs to a minimum so that we can provide, as much as possible, the processing capacity to the game side.
Something that I thought was really interesting is Tears of the Kingdom and Breath of the Wild on the Switch 2 have this app functionality with achievements and sort of GPS navigation. Is there a thought of maybe introducing more app-based functionality for other games, or was that purely just a Zelda team decision?
Zelda Notes.
Dohta: In this case, this idea did originate from the Zelda team saying, “Here’s something we want to do.” And now, with the Nintendo Switch 2, the Nintendo Switch Online app is getting a refresh, and we’re turning it into the “Nintendo Switch” app. And so even though the idea did come from the Zelda team about having this app, the smart device team thought it was very opportune time to have a new addition to that. And so that’s why we kind of ended up with this app as it stands now.
Also, it was an opportune time because we had planned to release Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom and The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild Nintendo Switch 2 Edition for both, and so it really turned out to be an opportune time for all of these to come in place, and that’s why we have the app as it stands now.
And on top of that, if you use GameChat, you can then communicate with your friends far away, pass them the QR code of, say, a blueprint, and it creates another form of communication — another venue of communication. Since the games themselves aren’t online, per se, using GameChat in conjunction with Zelda Notes creates this almost new form of communicative game with a game that’s not again online. I’m involved with both of those sides, so I just wanted to toss this in there. [laughs]
This is probably a challenging question. What’s your favourite feature that you’re most excited for players to experience? For me, personally, I love the mouse feature the most.
Dohta: From my side, it would maybe be GameChat. Because it really has the potential to open brand-new experiences for the player when it gets to their hands. So for me, it’s GameChat. You can use that feature when you have it in handheld mode. So for example, you could be lying around in bed communicating with your friends. And in that way, I feel like GameChat, the way it’s been built, really kind of blends in seamlessly into your daily life and it helps connect the gaming portion and communicating with friends into this one seamless experience.
Sasaki: As the director of the hardware side of things, it’s really hard to pick just one. But if I had to pick just one, I think the big screen really stands out to me. From the 1080p to 120Hz to having HDR support, I believe that I’ve taken every everything I could possibly think of and just put it into this device.
[picks up the Switch 2 and starts pulling apart and re-attaching the Joy-Con 2] And also, it’s the tactile feeling of ejecting and attaching the Joy-Con 2 just feels really good. And I just find myself just continuously doing it. [laughs]
Kawamoto: That’s not just one! [everyone laughs]
Sasaki: It’s really hard to pick just one! [laughs]
Kawamoto: So I also can’t pick one. And I apologize in advance, this is a bit of an unfair answer, but my favourite would be the software that you can only play on the Nintendo Switch 2. So that would be the games such as Mario Kart World, Donkey Kong Bananza, Drag and Drive. And then we also have Super Mario Party Jamboree Nintendo Switch 2 Edition + Jamboree TV.
This interview has been edited for language and clarity.
The Nintendo Switch 2 will launch worldwide on June 5 for $629. For more, check out our hands-on impressions of the Nintendo Switch 2 console and games. Pre-orders begin in Canada on April 9.
Additionally, check out our interview with Nintendo of America senior vice president of product development and publishing Nate Bihldorff.
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